Traditional Natural Dyeing Materials Used in Greece from the 19th Century Onwards
Round 1
Reviewer 1 Report
Review of the Manuscript “TRADITIONAL NATURAL DYEING MATERIALS USED IN GREECE FROM THE 19TH CENTURY ONWARDS”
The article is based on the large number of various sources, including field research (interviewing) in different regions of Greece. Another advantage is the emphasis on the need to use non-destructive research methods (in particular, to study dyes without sampling the objects). The structure of the article is clear. The results are understandable. Overall, the research makes a very good impression.
Regarding the shortcomings of the manuscript, there are no full captions for the photos. Perhaps the authors should indicate the sources of the photos (date, place and authors of the photo). Also, I would like to point out some small inaccuracies in the table below.
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№ |
Page / Lines |
Comments |
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1. |
Page 7. Line 196 |
The opening parenthesis after the words “took place” seems redundant. |
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2. |
Page 7. Lines 204 and 207 |
It is necessary to format the descriptions of diagrams 7 and 8 in the same way (italics, etc.). |
Comments for author File: 
Comments.pdf
Author Response
"The article is based on the large number of various sources, including field
research (interviewing) in different regions of Greece. Another advantage is the
emphasis on the need to use non-destructive research methods (in particular, to study
dyes without sampling the objects). The structure of the article is clear. The results
are understandable. Overall, the research makes a very good impression.
Regarding the shortcomings of the manuscript, there are no full captions for
the photos. Perhaps the authors should indicate the sources of the photos (date, place
and authors of the photo).
First of all we want to thank you for your generous feedback. We 've added the place and the year the photos were taken.
Also, I would like to point out some small inaccuracies in
the table below.
№ Page / Lines Comments
1. Page 7.
Line 196
The opening parenthesis after the words “took place”
seems redundant.
2. Page 7. Lines
204 and 207
It is necessary to format the descriptions of diagrams 7
and 8 in the same way (italics, etc.
We've corrected the mistakes.
Author Response File: Author Response.pdf
Reviewer 2 Report
Manuscript ID: heritage-2165616
Type of manuscript: Article
Title: Traditional natural dyeing materials used in Greece from the 19th century onwards
1. Recommendation:
Reconsider after major revisions
2. Comments to the authors:
2.1 Overview and general recommendation
The paper "Traditional natural dyeing materials used in Greece from the 19th century onwards" presents the record of different dyes and dyeing methods used traditionally in Greece after the 19th century; information that is important to collect systematically, organize, and share because, despite the numerous investigations performed so far, we still need to learn more about the dyeing sources and methodologies. However, the paper requires improvement to increase clarity, better organize the information, and report the methodology used by the researchers. This article is not suitable for publication in its current state. For this reason, I recommend reconsidering it after major revisions. My concerns are explained in detail below.
2.2 Major comments
In general, the paper requires English editing and revision to make it clearer and improve its structure. The authors must follow the journal guidelines.
First, it could be better to define the temporal range studied in this project, what is the newest record you consulted? Maybe you can better define it, for example, from the 19th century to the present day. To 2000? Onwards is a vague term that does not allow to have a clear idea.
Moreover, the Introduction should be rearranged to follow an inductive structure. The general information regarding the study of dyes in cultural heritage studies should be presented first and then the specific information about the project, making particular emphasis on the information presented in this particular paper, highlighting the main contribution, and giving a general idea of the methodology followed for the research.
Please reorganize the Materials and Methods using adequate tables and figures to make them easier to understand and allow the reader to identify straightforwardly the methodology you used.
The information in the Results and discussion is fragmented and not always pertinent, some information can be moved to the introduction or removed. Besides, it is not clear the line that the authors want to follow. Some of the information presented focuses on the technicalities of the dyes and dyeing methods, and sometimes on the anthropological aspects of dyeing. I suggest choosing one, or if the authors desire to present an interdisciplinary work, which probably is the aim of the authors, the information needs to be present in a well-organized structure with subheadings addressing the different aspects studied.
A deeper literature revision is required to add previous contributions, for example, the works by Dominique Cardon or Jo Kirby that have registered dye sources and dyeing recipes. This can help to highlight the main contribution of your work. What is different from those research?
2.3 Minor comments
- The abstract should be summarized to remove unnecessary information, the journal guidelines expressively indicate a maximum of 200 words, and the word count is over 300. You should present only relevant information to give a clear idea of what is included in the paper.
- Figures have poor quality; they should be improved and the authors should follow the journal guidelines for the preparation of the figures and tables and their captions.
- Page 3. Section 2.1 Gathering information. Line 129. The term "old books" is not precise, can you better indicate the temporary range of these documents? Consider presenting a table with the organized information of the different documents you include in your work, for example, manuscripts, books, etc. With the specific year, period, and provenance? This can help you to present in a more organized and summarized way the information regarding the information sources you consulted.
- Page 4. Section 2.1 Gathering information. Lines 148-151. It can be interesting to localize the regions you report in a map of Greece to allow the readers not experts on Greek geography to have an idea of the distribution. Also, you include Cyprus, which today is not Greece, so please elaborate on why you considered it as part of "Greek territory" (linguistic (so just the Greek part or also the Turkish one?), historically, or shared tradition?).
- Page 4. Section 2.1 Gathering information. Please give technical information regarding the interview structure you used for your research. How did you design the questions, and how did you structure and organize the results, what was the sample size (number of persons interviewed) you studied?
- Page 4. Figure 2 is not informative, what is it proposed? It is not even cited in the text. It does not add any particular information, please remove it, otherwise consider substituting it with a more informative photograph of the sample, showing their real size with a scale.
- Page 4. Section 2.2 Materials and dyeing procedure. Please organize the information in tables or graphs indicating precisely the number of plants you collect organized by color, by chemical class, by family, or by region (select the best way that suits your paper), and their sources (shop, countryside, etc.). The number of dyeing recipes you used organized by typology (direct, mordant), and the exact number of samples you prepared. Consider organizing your methodology in a flowchart.
- Page 5. Table 1. Please consider dividing this table into two (mordant and direct) to make it easier to read. Also in the same table, weight sometimes is in italics and others not, please unify it through the complete table. Additionally, you use commas to separate decimals, the correct way is to use points.
- In the same table, in Lye 25% there is k.b. what does this mean? Please modify.
- Page 8. Line 205. There is an extra parenthesis.
- Page 9. Diagrams 8 and 9. Please follow the journal guidelines, these are figures rather than diagrams. Why did you choose these two? Are they particularly representative of some methodology? Please consider presenting two diagrams that illustrate particular conditions, for example, mordant and direct. Also, consider unifying both diagrams in a single figure with a, b, c, and d, letters. Titles in the axes should be out of the diagram and reported in all the charts (diagram 9 lacks, the y-axis title, and units). Unify the way to present the images to make them the same. In one the title is inside in the other outside (the last is the correct way), diagram 8 has a blue line while in the other no, you should present them in the same way.
- Page 10. Section Results and discussions. Lines 248-249. You state that "Many of the natural dyes, depending on the dyeing process, had excellent durability and did not fade." Did you perform fading tests? If yes, please report in the materials and methods the technical information, does this information refers to a certain time? Please indicate how much time passed until the color faded and in what conditions the sample was kept. The information regarding the fading of color should be reported precisely, maybe in a table, did you identify a pattern? For example, do direct dyes fade more than mordant ones? Did a particular color reveal particularly unstable? This should be discussed.
- Page 10. Line 249. You stated "the color depth varied depending on the water" did you register the characteristics of the water (e.g., pH, salt content)? Did you use different types of water? Please report this in the Materials and Methods section. Can you please elaborate on the influence of the water on the final color of the sample?
- Page 10. Line 250. What do you mean by "The dyeing process affected the quality of the dye material"? Do you mean the mechanical, and physical properties? In the same section, you stated that climatic conditions influence the dye color. This is particularly interesting information, please explain what factors influence the color, was the same for all the dyes, or does a particular typology? How did you manage to identify this influence? Did you collect dye plants from the same place from different years with different climatic conditions and used the same dyeing methodology to evaluate the influence or did you collect the same plant from different regions with distinct climatic conditions and used them in the same way and compared the results? Please explain more in this regard and report this particular information in the Materials and Methods.
- Reference. Cite 1. Please correct this citation, it is not cited correctly, follow the journal's guidelines.
Author Response
In general, the paper requires English editing and revision to make it clearer and improve its structure. The authors must follow the journal guidelines.
Dear reviewer, we want to thank you for your correction. Apart for the English editing we had it corrected by an native English speaker.
First, it could be better to define the temporal range studied in this project, what is the newest record you consulted? Maybe you can better define it, for example, from the 19th century to the present day. To 2000? Onwards is a vague term that does not allow to have a clear idea.
In Greece stopped using natural dyeing somewhere around world war II that is why we didn't think to mentioned it. However it was true we had to make it clear for the reader.
Please reorganize the Materials and Methods using adequate tables and figures to make them easier to understand and allow the reader to identify straightforwardly the methodology you used.
We improved it by adding more information
The information in the Results and discussion is fragmented and not always pertinent, some information can be moved to the introduction or removed. Besides, it is not clear the line that the authors want to follow. Some of the information presented focuses on the technicalities of the dyes and dyeing methods, and sometimes on the anthropological aspects of dyeing. I suggest choosing one, or if the authors desire to present an interdisciplinary work, which probably is the aim of the authors, the information needs to be present in a well-organized structure with subheadings addressing the different aspects studied.
we removed any excess information and separated as you suggested the dyeing methodology from the cultural. however we kept both of them since we consider it is really important to point both.
A deeper literature revision is required to add previous contributions, for example, the works by Dominique Cardon or Jo Kirby that have registered dye sources and dyeing recipes. This can help to highlight the main contribution of your work. What is different from those research
We just put a minor part of the literature that refers to Greek region. We emphasize to put some of the old manuscripts and some of the old books. As we were referring how they used to dye in Greece we though we should put literature that refers to the Greek region.
Figures have poor quality; they should be improved and the authors should follow the journal guidelines for the preparation of the figures and tables and their captions.
- Page 3. Section 2.1 Gathering information. Line 129. The term "old books" is not precise, can you better indicate the temporary range of these documents? Consider presenting a table with the organized information of the different documents you include in your work, for example, manuscripts, books, etc. With the specific year, period, and provenance? This can help you to present in a more organized and summarized way the information regarding the information sources you consulted.
- Tried to fix the figures' labeling and the table.
- As far as the "old books" table we ve put most of them in the references.
Page 4. Section 2.1 Gathering information. Please give technical information regarding the interview structure you used for your research. How did you design the questions, and how did you structure and organize the results, what was the sample size (number of persons interviewed) you studied?
We tried to put as much information as possible. However ii wasn't easy every time to follow a question program because it depended on the person and his/her character.
Page 5. Table 1. Please consider dividing this table into two (mordant and direct) to make it easier to read. Also in the same table, weight sometimes is in italics and others not, please unify it through the complete table. Additionally, you use commas to separate decimals, the correct way is to use points.
- In the same table, in Lye 25% there is k.b. what does this mean? Please modify.
- Page 8. Line 205. There is an extra parenthesis.
The table was corrected. k.b. and extra parenthesis were left by mistake and removed.
Page 9. Diagrams 8 and 9. Please follow the journal guidelines, these are figures rather than diagrams. Why did you choose these two? Are they particularly representative of some methodology? Please consider presenting two diagrams that illustrate particular conditions, for example, mordant and direct. Also, consider unifying both diagrams in a single figure with a, b, c, and d, letters. Titles in the axes should be out of the diagram and reported in all the charts (diagram 9 lacks, the y-axis title, and units). Unify the way to present the images to make them the same. In one the title is inside in the other outside (the last is the correct way), diagram 8 has a blue line while in the other no, you should present them in the same way.
Also corrected
Page 10. Section Results and discussions. Lines 248-249. You state that "Many of the natural dyes, depending on the dyeing process, had excellent durability and did not fade." Did you perform fading tests? If yes, please report in the materials and methods the technical information, does this information refers to a certain time? Please indicate how much time passed until the color faded and in what conditions the sample was kept. The information regarding the fading of color should be reported precisely, maybe in a table, did you identify a pattern? For example, do direct dyes fade more than mordant ones? Did a particular color reveal particularly unstable? This should be discussed.
This came from the interviews, the dyed garments the people interviewed showed us and from the manuscripts. We performed some fading tests but in just a few samples. Thus we have not concrete data to discuss.
Page 10. Line 249. You stated "the color depth varied depending on the water" did you register the characteristics of the water (e.g., pH, salt content)? Did you use different types of water? Please report this in the Materials and Methods section. Can you please elaborate on the influence of the water on the final color of the sample?
Also tried to add as much as possible
Page 10. Line 250. What do you mean by "The dyeing process affected the quality of the dye material"? Do you mean the mechanical, and physical properties? In the same section, you stated that climatic conditions influence the dye color. This is particularly interesting information, please explain what factors influence the color, was the same for all the dyes, or does a particular typology? How did you manage to identify this influence? Did you collect dye plants from the same place from different years with different climatic conditions and used the same dyeing methodology to evaluate the influence or did you collect the same plant from different regions with distinct climatic conditions and used them in the same way and compared the results? Please explain more in this regard and report this particular information in the Materials and Methods.
We collected the dyeing materials from several places. The time of the year was given from the recipe (since we wanted to replicate it) As far the affect of the procedure we found different recipes using the same dyeing materials, the same auxiliaries and mordants but different dyeing procedure and resulted different shade,
We hope we covered the requested changes. We attach the corrected manuscript.
Thank you once again for your advice and comments
Author Response File: Author Response.pdf
Reviewer 3 Report
Dear authors,
The article entitled Traditiotal natural dyeing materials used in Greece from the 19th Centrury onwards is an attempt to present different plants and dyeing techniques used in Greece. Indeed, you mention a significant number of plants come from all over Greece and your research could be a significant tool for the conservators.
My objection is that in lines 44-48 you present the aim of the research mentioning the bulding of a non-destructive methodology based on Hyperspectral Imaging, Fiber optics, Infrared Spectroscopy and Chromatography and nowhere in the article you give results from these techniques. I suggest you reconsider this paragragh and add the corresponding results or delete this sentence, because it confuses the reader.
You also mention that is a preliminary report and indeed is written as a report and not as a scientific article. You give a lot of bibliographical details without giving your "personal" opinion. I suggest to revise the article giving your persepective
Kind regards!
Author Response
Dear reviewer,
we want to thank you for your contribution. Regarding your comments:
The article entitled Traditiotal natural dyeing materials used in Greece from the 19th Centrury onwards is an attempt to present different plants and dyeing techniques used in Greece. Indeed, you mention a significant number of plants come from all over Greece and your research could be a significant tool for the conservators.
My objection is that in lines 44-48 you present the aim of the research mentioning the bulding of a non-destructive methodology based on Hyperspectral Imaging, Fiber optics, Infrared Spectroscopy and Chromatography and nowhere in the article you give results from these techniques. I suggest you reconsider this paragragh and add the corresponding results or delete this sentence, because it confuses the reader.
we 've changed it by removing the details of the method. We left the non-destructive mention because we want to let the readers know what the research aims to do.
You also mention that is a preliminary report and indeed is written as a report and not as a scientific article. You give a lot of bibliographical details without giving your "personal" opinion. I suggest to revise the article giving your persepective
Thank you for the notice. We had bits of our personal opinion but we tried to improved it. Hopefully we managed to do it so that it would be clear enough.
We send you the corrected manuscript.
Kind regards
Author Response File: Author Response.pdf
Reviewer 4 Report
Dear authors, Your paper "TRADITIONAL NATURAL DYEING MATERIALS USED IN GREECE FROM THE 19TH CENTURY ONWARDS" represents the first systematic research on this topic and will make an excellent contribution on the historical use of natural dyes. The study of more than 2000 bibliographic manuscripts and numerous interviews with experts on historic dyeing techniques gives an insight into the various aspects of dyeing materials used for dyeing clothes in Greece from the 19th century onwards. Kermes and 140 plants, self-collected or purchased from the market, were selected for dyeing experiments. The dyed woolen fabrics will serve as reference material for non-destructive dye analysis of 19th century Greek clothing. This elaborate research will serve to pass on the knowledge to future generations and will be of interest for many scientific fields such as ethnology, art history, heritage science, conservation and botany.
The general text about the research project is described very good and in detail. I propose to present more details of the dyeing experiments in table 1 (see specfic comments in the Word-file).
Apart from the requested additions to Table 1, most of the corrections concern errors in the spelling of scientific species names, which can be easily corrected.
Since I am not a native speaker, I do not feel qualified to judge the English language and style. However, I would like to note that the text is written clearly and understandably.
I recommend accepting the paper after minor revisions. I explain my suggestions in the specific comments (see attached Word-file.)
Comments for author File: Comments.pdf
Author Response
we warmly want to thank you for your effort and contribution to the correction of the present manuscript. All your comments are written so thoroughly that help us to improve.
Dear authors, Your paper "TRADITIONAL NATURAL DYEING MATERIALS USED IN GREECE FROM THE 19TH CENTURY ONWARDS" represents the first systematic research on this topic and will make an excellent contribution on the historical use of natural dyes. The study of more than 2000 bibliographic manuscripts and numerous interviews with experts on historic dyeing techniques gives an insight into the various aspects of dyeing materials used for dyeing clothes in Greece from the 19th century onwards. Kermes and 140 plants, self-collected or purchased from the market, were selected for dyeing experiments. The dyed woolen fabrics will serve as reference material for non-destructive dye analysis of 19th century Greek clothing. This elaborate research will serve to pass on the knowledge to future generations and will be of interest for many scientific fields such as ethnology, art history, heritage science, conservation and botany.
The general text about the research project is described very good and in detail. I propose to present more details of the dyeing experiments in table 1 (see specfic comments in the Word-file).
Apart from the requested additions to Table 1, most of the corrections concern errors in the spelling of scientific species names, which can be easily corrected.
We used the template you made for us. It was really helpful.
Since I am not a native speaker, I do not feel qualified to judge the English language and style. However, I would like to note that the text is written clearly and understandably.
we corrected the mistakes you mentioned and besides we had it checked by a native English speaker. We attach the corrected manuscript and we thank you once again
I recommend accepting the paper after minor revisions. I explain my suggestions in the specific comments (see attached Word-file.)
Kind regards
Author Response File: Author Response.pdf
Round 2
Reviewer 2 Report
I want to thank the authors for considering the previous comments. The article's structure has been improved. However, there are still a few elements that require attention. And in particular, I have concerns about the copyright of the images presented. This issue regarding the misuse of images and the probably incorrect copyright reported in the caption raises ethical concerns about this work. For this reason, I strongly suggest the Editors reject this paper unless the authors revise and correct this issue.
Please explain clearly the sources of your images, I was able to trace some of the images that are reported on different websites, specifically, Figure 3, Figure 4b, Figure 5. Moreover, the images have been modified (cut) and in one of the (Figure 5) the date does not match (according to the original image that seems to be taken in 2010).
-Figure 5. Was obtained from this website: http://users.sch.gr/gpantakis/wp-content/uploads/DSCN1211.JPG. The original photo seems to take on October 2nd 2010 (02/10/2010) yet the authors indicate they took it in 2016 in Crete).
- Figure 3 seems to be taken from a website: https://drmattapharmacy.gr/cistus-creticus-50ml yet the authors mention in the caption that they took the photo in 2018.
-Figure 4b was also obtained from a website and was modified: https://www.blue-ecosystems.com/racheliSeaWeed/English/Rytiphlaea-tinctoria-%28Clemente%29-C.-Agardh-
Some other minor comments that need attention:
Table 1. Column C/M. Consider changing the title of the column to "Source".
Table 1. In several cells there is "???", what does this stand for? The table reports the methods you used for dyeing your samples, does the question marks suggest that you do not have that information? For example, for acetic acid, can't you report the ml used in the dyeing process? This could be very useful for the reproducibility of your research. The same symbols are present in the cell "Used part" of the Mentha spicata L. row. Why is that? Don't you know which part of the plat you used? There are other cells empty (Taraxacum officinale, and Vitex agnus-castus). If the table reports not only the data of the method you used but also general information obtained from the records, please explain it clearly in the text and the table caption.
Diagram 1. The axes of the diagram are still incorrect. The labels should be noted y-axis "Temperature (°C)" and the x-axis "Time (min?)". Please plot it again using the raw data and increase the quality.
Figure 3. Please be sure you have the copyright of the image. It seems that it was obtained from a website: https://drmattapharmacy.gr/cistus-creticus-50ml
Figure 4. There is a 4 in the parenthesis instead of a. Also in that caption, in b) please indicate which algae and indicate the source of the image. Do you have the permission to use the image? It was obtained from a website: https://www.blue-ecosystems.com/racheliSeaWeed/English/Rytiphlaea-tinctoria-%28Clemente%29-C.-Agardh-
Author Response
Dear reviewer,
Thanks for your time and contribution to the improvement of this paper. As far as your comments we did the following changes:
I want to thank the authors for considering the previous comments. The article's structure has been improved. However, there are still a few elements that require attention. And in particular, I have concerns about the copyright of the images presented. This issue regarding the misuse of images and the probably incorrect copyright reported in the caption raises ethical concerns about this work. For this reason, I strongly suggest the Editors reject this paper unless the authors revise and correct this issue.
Please explain clearly the sources of your images, I was able to trace some of the images that are reported on different websites, specifically, Figure 3, Figure 4b, Figure 5. Moreover, the images have been modified (cut) and in one of the (Figure 5) the date does not match (according to the original image that seems to be taken in 2010).
-Figure 5. Was obtained from this website: http://users.sch.gr/gpantakis/wp-content/uploads/DSCN1211.JPG. The original photo seems to take on October 2nd 2010 (02/10/2010) yet the authors indicate they took it in 2016 in Crete).
- Figure 3 seems to be taken from a website: https://drmattapharmacy.gr/cistus-creticus-50ml yet the authors mention in the caption that they took the photo in 2018
We changed the photos with completely different ones, so that we will not have any copyright issues.
-Figure 4b was also obtained from a website and was modified: https://www.blue-ecosystems.com/racheliSeaWeed/English/Rytiphlaea-tinctoria-%28Clemente%29-C.-Agardh-
we put the url link, where we found it.
Some other minor comments that need attention:
Table 1. Column C/M. Consider changing the title of the column to "Source".
added as requested
Table 1. In several cells there is "???", what does this stand for? The table reports the methods you used for dyeing your samples, does the question marks suggest that you do not have that information? For example, for acetic acid, can't you report the ml used in the dyeing process? This could be very useful for the reproducibility of your research. The same symbols are present in the cell "Used part" of the Mentha spicata L. row. Why is that? Don't you know which part of the plat you used? There are other cells empty (Taraxacum officinale, and Vitex agnus-castus). If the table reports not only the data of the method you used but also general information obtained from the records, please explain it clearly in the text and the table caption.
Corrected and filled the missed gaps (working with track changes is a bit confusing).
Diagram 1. The axes of the diagram are still incorrect. The labels should be noted y-axis "Temperature (°C)" and the x-axis "Time (min?)". Please plot it again using the raw data and increase the quality.
Corrected
Figure 4. There is a 4 in the parenthesis instead of a. Also in that caption, in b) please indicate which algae and indicate the source of the image. Do you have the permission to use the image? It was obtained from a website: https://www.blue-ecosystems.com/racheliSeaWeed/English/Rytiphlaea-tinctoria-%28Clemente%29-C.-Agardh-
Corrected. We have permission to use the photos by the owners.
We send you the updated article.
kind regards
Author Response File: 
Author Response.docx
Reviewer 3 Report
Dear authors,
Congratulations!
The article can be published in the present form!
Kind regards!
Author Response
We really want to thank you for your effort and your contribution.
Kind regards
Reviewer 4 Report
Dear authors,
Congratulation to your article "TRADITIONAL NATURAL DYEING MATERIALS USED IN GREECE FROM THE 19TH CENTURY ONWARDS" that makes an important contribution to the study of natural dyes.
While reading, I still noticed some errors in the plant names and I am making some suggestions for optimising the table and the text. See specific comments in the attached file <heritage-2165616-peer-review2.docx>.
Comments for author File: Comments.docx
Author Response
Dear reviewer,
We want to thank you so much for your help and contribution to the improvement of our article.
Your comments are really helpful. We followed your instructions and we hope we haven't miss any spot. It is a bit confusing working with track changes on. However we believe we 've done all the corrections.
We attach the updated article.
Thanks again for your valuable help.
Best regards
Author Response File: Author Response.docx
